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Old 01-28-2007, 10:46 PM   #27
Mike Doolittle
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Re: The Root of all Evil/Trobule With Atheism

Originally Posted by Nicato View Post
The only reason why I brought the god of Abraham into this discussion (as an aside, no less) was to demostrate that your assertion that "belief in a God isn't unreasonable" is in most cases false. (Well, in all cases it is false, but in this case it's really false.)
In that case, I don't think you've demonstrated anything.

Part of The problem is that you've hijacked "God" (with a capital g) and placed him as simply a first "uncaused cause." (I say hijacked because this is not where "God" has historically been.) My point is that "God" (with a capital g), for most people who believe in it, is not so inconsequential a figure, rather a being that has direct influence on us today (for example, people praise "God" for their "blessings"). Thus, for most purposes and more for most people, belief in a god is unreasonable.
I'm not reducing God to a creative power. I believe that God as a creator is an integral part of God's subsequent qualities. All religions begin with a creator God. Creation is directly tied into what is defined as our sense of purpose and meaning. If you don't understand creation, attempting to understand things like "the problem of evil" will be futile.

What I did was refrence a very specific and well known argument. What you did was say, in so many words, "Go search the internet for a counterargument." What I want you to do is provide or advocate a specific counterargument, not simply say that they exist.
You didn't apply it any relevant context, you just tossed it out there as a catch-all. You could have referenced any of the popular atheist arguments, all of which I am familiar with incidentally. And so I told you that if you are really interested in discussing how the God of Abraham is compatible with a logical world view, then you should discuss that with Christians. If you want to know my own views on suffering, then ask.

There is no need for phrases like "you need to do your homework" or "it's not my job to provide you with a basic theological education." If what I am saying is false then it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate how so, not call me a dumb-ass.
I'm not calling you a dumb-ass. I'm asking that you present your own thoughts and arguments in a valid context, not just tell me to read Wikipedia. So yeah, the problem of evil. What about it?

As I've said before, atheism presupposes no positive beliefs it all. You can have no opinions as to the validity of scientific knowledge and still be an atheist. The onus is on advocates of positivism to prove their philosopy, not necessarily atheists.
If that's your perspective, then what you're describing is not atheism; or, it can best be described as "weak atheism". Atheism is an outright rejection of the existence of anything spiritual. Atheism and positivism are congruent philosophies, because the atheist believes that since there is no spiritual reality, all that is relevant to our existence is quantitative knowledge.

If you're posturing that our faculties of reason are the only kind of knowledge that we can meaningfully possess, and simply hold that God's existence is thus unknowable, then you're defending agnosticism.

Secondly, you have to define what you mean by "faith" as there is a difference between a religious faith and one came about by reason.
What difference?

I believe that if we lived in an alternative dimension were farting bunnies were in place of all historical mentionings of god, you'd believe in your hijacked farting bunny hypothesis and look down upon my equally plausible "creative god" alternative.
Once again you are confusing qualities of God with actions that define God as a "God".

Well, and see this is the thing, that is not how I feel it all. I don't believe in a self-causing and/or self-perpetuating universe so you can stop beating that straw man. All you've done was assign all those beliefs toward me just so you could ascend your soapbox and preach your ready-made argument against atheism.
I've done no such thing, and you're not accomplishing anything by resorting to personal attacks. Look, if you want to believe that whatever "popped" us into existence is unknowable, that random chance could account for our existence or whatever it is you choose to believe, I'm not trying to stop you. You keep making this out to be some sort of theological war and it's nothing like that. I don't give a shit what you believe. If you choose not to believe in God and that life has no intrinsic meaning, hell, your loss as far as I'm concerned. But the issue I take is that you seem completely unwilling to even step into the shoes of the faithful; you want matters faith to be something that can be laid out before you like anything else tangible. It just doesn't work like that.
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Last edited by Mike Doolittle; 01-29-2007 at 12:38 AM.
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