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Old 01-28-2007, 09:09 PM   #25
Nicato
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Re: The Root of all Evil/Trobule With Atheism

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Mike Doolittle (Post #24):
I'm not really in the business of defending the Christian God. I suggest you raise the issue with Christians if you wish to discuss their specific theological beliefs.
The only reason why I brought the god of Abraham into this discussion (as an aside, no less) was to demostrate that your assertion that "belief in a God isn't unreasonable" is in most cases false. (Well, in all cases it is false, but in this case it's really false.)

Part of The problem is that you've hijacked "God" (with a capital g) and placed him as simply a first "uncaused cause." (I say hijacked because this is not where "God" has historically been.) My point is that "God" (with a capital g), for most people who believe in it, is not so inconsequential a figure, rather a being that has direct influence on us today (for example, people praise "God" for their "blessings"). Thus, for most purposes and more for most people, belief in a god is unreasonable.

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All you did was post a link to a popular argument against theism. You could have posted a link to the Paradox of the Stone or any number of other anti-theistic arguments. What do you want me to do, post you a link to a Christian apologist site? Try existence-of-god.com. But when you have issues with what's said there, you'll have to raise them with the author of the site. The problem here is that you're not presenting an argument; you're just telling me what someone else said.
What I did was refrence a very specific and well known argument. What you did was say, in so many words, "Go search the internet for a counterargument." What I want you to do is provide or advocate a specific counterargument, not simply say that they exist.

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I'm more than willing to share my views with you Nic, but it's not my job to provide you with a basic theological education.
There is no need for phrases like "you need to do your homework" or "it's not my job to provide you with a basic theological education." If what I am saying is false then it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate how so, not call me a dumb-ass.

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The onus is on the atheist to justify their own faith in positivism. You simply have to be consistent with your own ideas. A self-causing and self-perpetuating universe cannot co-exist with the known laws of science.
As I've said before, atheism presupposes no positive beliefs it all. You can have no opinions as to the validity of scientific knowledge and still be an atheist. The onus is on advocates of positivism to prove their philosopy, not necessarily atheists.

Secondly, you have to define what you mean by "faith" as there is a difference between a religious faith and one came about by reason.

Thirdly, and hopefully for the last time, no one here is saying that the rules of this universe have to be applied before it came into being.

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So not only do you believe in a universe that is self-causing and/or self-perpetuating...
The only possible way you could have came to that conclusion was to ignore the following:
  • "Whatever happened before the Big Bang doesn't necessarily have to conform to the rules of physics, gravity, or time because those laws only exist (as we know them; as far we know) inside our universe"
  • "I choose to be agnostic as to the cause of the universe."
  • "I think the only reasonable position to claim is that of ignorance. We just don't yet know what happened before the big bang. We may never know."

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....but you believe that the very fabric of spacetime, the perfect harmony of the laws of physics, the right materials needed to sustain life for billions of years, etc... are just as likely to have been brought on by an extra-dimensional fart as a creative god?
I believe that if we lived in an alternative dimension were farting bunnies were in place of all historical mentionings of god, you'd believe in your hijacked farting bunny hypothesis and look down upon my equally plausible "creative god" alternative.

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If that's how you feel, then I think we're at an impasse. You've chosen randomness as your god.
Well, and see this is the thing, that is not how I feel it all. I don't believe in a self-causing and/or self-perpetuating universe so you can stop beating that straw man. All you've done was assign all those beliefs toward me just so you could ascend your soapbox and preach your ready-made argument against atheism.
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